Are You “Good” Without God?
A coalition of atheists and agnostics are meeting in groups in their communities and started not only posing that question but attempting to live within that reason.
The campaign that started this question started simply enough with signs on subway cars, I-895, I-95, M&T Bank Stadium, New York, California, Massachusetts, Texas, South Carolina Virginia. Not everyone has been so receptive to their message. Bloomington, Indiana said no go with their signs. Normally, I do not bristle at mass advertisements, but this topic struck a chord with me and started me to think.
The National Director of the United Coalition of Reason, Fred Edwords says,”The point of our national billboard campaign is to reach out to the millions of humanists, atheists and agnostics living in the United States, Nontheists sometimes don’t realize there’s a community out there for them because they’re inundated with religious messages at every turn. So we hope this will serve as a beacon and let them know they aren’t alone.” An additional goal is promoting the release of “Good without God: What a Billion Nonreligious People Do Believe,” by Greg Epstein, the Humanist chaplain at Harvard University. It’s definitely one way to promote your book. It got everyone’s attention. Do I intend to read it? No. Do most people? Probably not.
I want to make it completely clear that I believe in supporting free speech, even if I disagree with it. I think it’s actually a good thing? Why? It makes you actually act and affirm that which you believe. Are you doing good to do good or are you doing good because it’s the right thing to do. There is a much deeper discussion here.
How do you define good? For those of us with Faith there has to be a standard, that is not subjective. If you say you are good because you feel good, someone else might look at you and say you are evil. It’s all subjective unless you have a standard like the Bible.
- Romans 3:12 “There is none who does good, no, not one.”
- Mark 10:18″ No one is good but One, that is, God.”
- Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”
God’s standard is perfection. Some of us, admit to that better than others. It’s a part of the human condition that we fail. We can never be good on our own. We can only admit our need and trust in Him to save us. As followers of God we humble ourselves to know that we on our own cannot do it. Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” All we have to do is believe in Christ as our only God and Savior. I know, people don’t want to admit that they can’t be good enough on their own. We want to save ourselves, or better yet, not need a savior at all because we’re “good enough”. But, once again, good enough for what and for who and who gets to decide? I guess if you don’t believe in eternity, you probably don’t care anyways. It’s a pretty big gamble, though. Saying you can be good without God is not an attack on Christianity. It simply gives confidence to people who are questioning faith so they don’t feel guilty about it.
{For more from Oretha Winston follow her on Twitter}
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Comments
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My bad cwright731 with the he reference, I made the mental note that you are a woman so I wont make that mistake again.
LOL CaliFemme23,
Be nice to this brave Christian that stepped into the lions den. I though I would be attacked with scripture quoting believers when I offered my initial thoughts on this topic but its been silent. I guess they save their best for calling celebrities who dont adhere to their belief system devil worshipers, Illuminati, ect….
At least ewright731 kept it civil.
cwright731,
Yes, you finally said something non plusive and sensical…Lets agree to disagree…You are hypocritical, ill informed and much too azzuming of who I am. You are also non comprehensive, ignorant to my stand point and as usual….judgemental….But Im not surprised, I mean you are a religious person after all…I expect nothing less from YOU people.. (wink)…
To SeniorCafeDa2nd
If you acknowledge the fact that I may be knowledgeable enough to have a decent, civilized debate, then it means that I accomplished what I’ve set out to do. I showed you that not every Christian fits into the stereotype. And I do hope that when you say, “…to even attempt to try to prove me wrong,” you weren’t assuming that I was trying to convert you, or prove to you that God exists, because I wasn’t. I was just trying to clear up some common misconceptions of the Christian faith by stating the Christian view, and offering some possible reasons for those misconceptions. I enjoy dialogue and debate because it allows me to have self reflection, while at the same time increasing my knowledge of a subject matter…So thanks for the insightful debate…by the way, I’m a woman.
To Califemme23
You asked me why I am arguing something that I think is foolish…well I’d like to clarify for a moment. I think that arguing something that you don’t understand nor want to try to understand is foolish. I don’t believe that the non-belief in God or the supernatural is foolish. We spend our lives in school, from the age of 5, being taught to question everything. That’s why I get why people don’t believe in God. I choose to argue (or debate) the matter because I think it’s important to have an open dialogue (or discussion) about each viewpoint, so that both sides can get over their common misconceptions. It’s my way of trying to learn about and understand you. When discussing atheism and theism, people are usually throwing out insults, devaluing the other groups views, and looking for reasons to be offended so much so, that they tend to miss the whole point of who each of these groups are and what they stand for.
That is why I went straight past your other post and commented on SeniorCafeDa2nd’s post. He took my statements, he refuted them, and he left emotion out of it. I felt that you and I couldn’t have a dialogue because even when you’re trying to make a point, you insist on throwing in condescending or insulting comments, which would naturally make me react in the same way. I know that you know as well as I know that whenever people use the phrase, “YOU people,” it’s intended to be condescending and confrontational. So when everything is said and done, we’ve accomplished nothing, but validated each other’s stereotypes of each group.
You also say that I don’t understand atheist…well, I actually know quite a few atheist, agnostic, and spiritualists. I went to America’s most non religious college dubbed by the Princeton Review. I debated with them on a regular basis for over two years, and was the minority in the group. In my experience, I’ve learned that just like Christians, there are many different types of atheists who have many different views. Some are very extreme and close-minded and feel that we should rid the whole world of religion, because they think it will help to enlighten people of the world…there are some who really don’t care, and are indifferent, and some who liked to calmly discuss the topic and show respect as long as others did the same…. My point is, just like I don’t like people to judge Christianity as a whole just because they read a few scriptures or spoke to some people, I won’t group you with all of the atheists that I’ve met or know, or act like I completely get everything just because I studied with them for a couple of years. Any of the things I’ve said that made you feel that I was passing judgment on you, I’m sorry for making you feel that way.
Finally, bringing things back to the point of the article. I’ve read, and reread Miss O’s article to see if I could see what you’re seeing…I think that if you’re reading this article, with the thought that she is addressing the atheists, then it will look as if she is being condescending. However, if you read it as if she is addressing the Christian community, then it looks like she is saying to not take personal offense to these messages, because they are not a jab at Christians.
When she says that it’s a pretty big gamble, it just means that if there is a God, you’re going to lose out big, in the end. But I’m sure you believe it’s a gamble too. If there isn’t a God, people wasted their lives worshiping an imaginary figure.
In your own words, Califemme23
“…I used to be there myself until I woke up and realized that everything happening in my life good or bad, I was totally responsible for period. And it has lifted such a burden off of me you cant imagine.”
You basically said that you were burdened with trying to follow your religion. I’m going to assume that that burden was guilt. I’m sure that while you were sorting out your thoughts, the thought of there not being a God while you were still practicing the religion, probably increased that burden. If that’s the case, you basically said what Miss O said.
“Saying you can be good without God … simply gives confidence to people who are questioning faith so they don’t feel guilty about it.” (I omitted the middle part of that statement because it was meant for the Christians who may find offense in the phrase).
You no longer question faith right now. You’ve already decided that you don’t believe. But there are people out there who are questioning their faith and dealing with guilt (especially if they were raised to believe in God). Seeing a billboard with the words, “Are you good without God?…Millions are”, is something that can help them with that transition.
Basically, her article wasn’t meant to attack non-believers. “How do we define good?” The Bible is a Christian’s standard. If you’re not a Christian, what do you measure your standard of good by? If you don’t believe in God, then good is subjective. Isn’t this what you’ve been saying?
Califemme23
Once again, I am MORE than good enough. I am more than good enough for myself, good enough for myself and who gets to decide? I DO.
So, you and Miss O really are saying the same thing. If I misinterpreted anything Miss O…then sorry.
Well you guys, I think this will be my last post. Why? Not because I couldn’t debate with you for days about this subject, but because my interest in the matter is waning. So while it has been interesting, I’d just like to end it with a, “Let’s just agree to disagree.”
I give it up to cwright731, He’s about the only Christian with enough real knowledge outside his faith, to even attempt to try to prove me wrong.
SenorCafeDa2nd, Keep it hot bruh…you dont leave anything else to be said…*Applause*
cwright731
You say:
You’re absolutely right. Many atheists were raised and indoctrinated into a Christian religion and have read the Bible backwards, forward, and up-side-down. Many Christians also believe that just because they read the bible and can quote a bunch of versus that they understand or know everything. I believe many people forget that religion is a life’s philosophy. When you practice a faith, it’s a lifestyle choice that you actively make. People are not born Christians, but many people are raised to be Christian. But honestly, it takes people a lifetime of studying and dedication to understand the Bible and its message…or any kind of religious doctrine. And yes, many Christians do only read the scriptures that conform to their beliefs. I believe that this is a very big problem in the Christian community. However, Christianity, as well as other beliefs, is not just about being familiar with the doctrines, but living your life by them. It’s just my opinion, but I think the problem with most people is that they try to apply a Western ideology to an Eastern philosophy, which is why it doesn’t work with their schema.
I Say:
I dont need to be a Christian in order to be a good eithical person and if a lifetime of studying and dedication to understanding the bible is what make Christians then I have to say that the vast majority of Christians fall short of that. My philosophy to life is reality, If I need a book to follow for the reality of my existence why would I just seek out they Bible, I could as easily read the Koran, the Bavhat Gita, the Upanishads, the Tao Teh Ching these books are also touted as philosophies of life and they have legions of people just as numerous as Christians who follow them to the letter. I would be short changing myself If I needed such a crutch to just follow the Bible. The last statement you made about Eastern philosophy and western ideology please clarify, from my understanding western ideology was born out of Greece which co-opted much of its ideology form Egypt the east.
You Say:
There’s the illogical part of it all. Why would you try to test, observe, or repeat something in the “REAL” world, when faith is spiritual? …Yes, I know what you’ll probably say next. There is no way of proving that there is a spiritual or supernatural world, right? Well, there is no way of disproving it either. I took a philosophy of religion class. I learned that the algorithms basically center on trying to prove or disprove whether or not God exists. Honestly, I don’t know any faith that tries to prove the existence of their deities in their doctrines. For religions, the existence of the deities are the given, and the doctrines are written around that fact. Believing in the deity is why it’s called faith. This argument stems from the nonbelievers comparing doctrines that were written with the belief that a God exists, and trying to disprove it by creating a set of rules that go outside of the boundaries of the doctrines to make it not be so. If the answer was just that simple, there would be no argument…or religion for that matter. This has been a long going argument for centuries. Atheist cannot prove that God doesn’t exist to the satisfaction of the theist, and theist cannot prove that God exists, to the satisfaction of the atheists. So there comes a point when we have to respect each other’s views and agree to disagree.
I Say:
Since I live in a reality based existence, I don’t live off faith or spirit. As far as disproving the supernatural, until there is empirical proof of its existence I choose not to believe in it. If the god you claim exists he is either a psychopath or impotent, he cant stop wars or can he, he cant stop suffering or can he, the people who praise him the most are the people who are the most suffering from the maladies of the world. I choose not to believe in such nonsense, I don’t need any scientific proof of such a non-entity’s existence because If this God really existed it would be pretty easy for an all knowing and seeing supernatural being to offer proof of its existence with something simple.
You Say:
I turn on the news and I see people trying to help people in Haiti (a large number of them from a religious group). I see stories about people killing people, issues with the Taliban, suicide bombers, American soldiers who died in the war (and we are not there because of religion), Peru drug lords, the Winter Olympics, Obama’s “blackness”, the recession, and whatever else people care about when it comes to the movie stars and music artists. The percentage of people being divided due to religion in the news is not the biggest issues in the world in the scheme of things. As I said before, religion is not the issue. It’s the hearts of the people who use the religion as an excuse…to basically raise hell. If you look in our history, people have used religion for political gain, but that doesn’t mean that there weren’t people who weren’t against it, and it doesn’t mean that the people using the religion were very religious either. As a Christian, I can’t control the actions of other Christians, Buddhist, Muslims, or Jews. If, as you say, we are all held accountable for our own actions, then let each individual be held accountable for their actions, and quit trying to blame religion as a whole. I can only lead by example. Christianity, Islam, or Judaism is not responsible for what’s going on in the Middle East. If anything, you’ll find that a lot of innocent religious people are caught in the middle of the political agenda. I mean seriously, America’s in a war, and not everyone agrees with it. But we have no control over what the government has chosen to do. Trying to blame the whole religious community for bad things that have happened in the world due to individual people’s decisions is like trying to blame all Americans for the negative consequences that have occurred due to the war.
I Say:
Once again, Why is your all powerful omnipotent god letting its followers kill or be killed by each other, why doesn’t this all powerful being speak through an donkey or a burning bush to tell its followers to stop the nonsense. Hummmm……….maybe this fabrication of the mind doesn’t exist.
You Say:
Seriously…? Okay…My interpretation of Christianity is a rejection of the lack of belief of all supernatural beings and phenomena that are normally associated with the idea of there being a God…If it’s good enough for you, then it’s good enough for me. You reject the idea (thought/concept/belief) of God, so then you have a different idea (thought/concept/belief) than those who believe in God right?
You can be very careful with your wording, but when people want to sum it up; they say that atheism is the belief that there is no God.
You don’t believe in God
You believe that there is no God
You have a disbelief in God
You have a lack of belief in God
They are all saying the same thing.
The atheist “handbook” (I like to call it a doctrine), may not have been officially claimed, but it’s there because I’ve yet to hear an atheist not refer to it when discussing religion. When you say that things concerning the belief system cannot be “…tested, observed, repeated…” Where did that come from? Oh yeah every science book that teaches the scientific method. This is why you feel that religion is illogical, right? You find it illogical because it doesn’t work with these set of rules, or beliefs.
According to Webster’s dictionary, a belief is:
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing (in your case, the scientific method)
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
I Say:
I don’t believe in God period nor in anything associated with the belief of that/those gods including holy ghosts, hell, angels, devils, heaven, miracles. I made myself clear the last time. Its simple, no hand book, no doctrine, no rituals. When god and phenomena associated with god can be tested , observed repeated I would have to change my views because I live a reality based existence, but until then no seeing is no believing.
You Say:
You studied the religion, and yet you make a comment like that? You didn’t learn very much in your studies or you misunderstood because we’re not taught to blame God or Satan for our failures…some people may, but that’s nowhere in my Bible. We believe that the fall of man was not God’s doing or the devil’s doing. It was mankind’s doing, and we’ve been punished because of that. God has expectations of us, and we try to live up to his expectations, but we are sinners. Because of this, many Christians carry a heavy weight of trying to be perfect, but it’s a standard that is impossible to reach. We believe that we cannot reach purity/perfection, unless God makes us pure. But in order to get to that point, we have to take responsibility for our actions, hence, repentance of our sins, and asking for forgiveness. If we’re not blaming ourselves, then I don’t know who we’re blaming. As I’ve stated before, it’s your prerogative if you believe or not, but at least know what you’re talking about. And understand that God and Satan are very visible to those that choose to reject the lack of belief in all supernatural beings and phenomena that are normally associated with the idea of God.
I Say:
I made myself perfectly clear, there is no mincing my words
SenorCafeDa2nd
You say:
I like many of my atheist peers were raised and indoctrinated into the Christian religion from birth, studied the religion and made a conscious decision that the mythology wasn’t for us. I have read the Bible from end to end and not just some scriptures that conform to my beliefs as most Christians do.
I say:
You’re absolutely right. Many atheists were raised and indoctrinated into a Christian religion and have read the Bible backwards, forward, and up-side-down. Many Christians also believe that just because they read the bible and can quote a bunch of versus that they understand or know everything. I believe many people forget that religion is a life’s philosophy. When you practice a faith, it’s a lifestyle choice that you actively make. People are not born Christians, but many people are raised to be Christian. But honestly, it takes people a lifetime of studying and dedication to understand the Bible and its message…or any kind of religious doctrine. And yes, many Christians do only read the scriptures that conform to their beliefs. I believe that this is a very big problem in the Christian community. However, Christianity, as well as other beliefs, is not just about being familiar with the doctrines, but living your life by them. It’s just my opinion, but I think the problem with most people is that they try to apply a Western ideology to an Eastern philosophy, which is why it doesn’t work with their schema.
You say:
As far as your religion looking illogical to many of us, many of the allegorical stories that are touted as evidence of your belief system are illogical they cannot be tested, observed, repeated in the “REAL” world.
I say:
There’s the illogical part of it all. Why would you try to test, observe, or repeat something in the “REAL” world, when faith is spiritual? …Yes, I know what you’ll probably say next. There is no way of proving that there is a spiritual or supernatural world, right? Well, there is no way of disproving it either. I took a philosophy of religion class. I learned that the algorithms basically center on trying to prove or disprove whether or not God exists. Honestly, I don’t know any faith that tries to prove the existence of their deities in their doctrines. For religions, the existence of the deities are the given, and the doctrines are written around that fact. Believing in the deity is why it’s called faith. This argument stems from the nonbelievers comparing doctrines that were written with the belief that a God exists, and trying to disprove it by creating a set of rules that go outside of the boundaries of the doctrines to make it not be so. If the answer was just that simple, there would be no argument…or religion for that matter. This has been a long going argument for centuries. Atheist cannot prove that God doesn’t exist to the satisfaction of the theist, and theist cannot prove that God exists, to the satisfaction of the atheists. So there comes a point when we have to respect each other’s views and agree to disagree.
You say:
Your statement on religion dividing people, open up a news paper or turn on the news to see whats going on in the world or even in the birthplace of your religion one of the most volatile places on this earth because of religion.
I say:
I turn on the news and I see people trying to help people in Haiti (a large number of them from a religious group). I see stories about people killing people, issues with the Taliban, suicide bombers, American soldiers who died in the war (and we are not there because of religion), Peru drug lords, the Winter Olympics, Obama’s “blackness”, the recession, and whatever else people care about when it comes to the movie stars and music artists. The percentage of people being divided due to religion in the news is not the biggest issues in the world in the scheme of things. As I said before, religion is not the issue. It’s the hearts of the people who use the religion as an excuse…to basically raise hell. If you look in our history, people have used religion for political gain, but that doesn’t mean that there weren’t people who weren’t against it, and it doesn’t mean that the people using the religion were very religious either. As a Christian, I can’t control the actions of other Christians, Buddhist, Muslims, or Jews. If, as you say, we are all held accountable for our own actions, then let each individual be held accountable for their actions, and quit trying to blame religion as a whole. I can only lead by example. Christianity, Islam, or Judaism is not responsible for what’s going on in the Middle East. If anything, you’ll find that a lot of innocent religious people are caught in the middle of the political agenda. I mean seriously, America’s in a war, and not everyone agrees with it. But we have no control over what the government has chosen to do. Trying to blame the whole religious community for bad things that have happened in the world due to individual people’s decisions is like trying to blame all Americans for the negative consequences that have occurred due to the war.
You say:
My interpretation of atheism is a rejection of all supernatural beings and phenomena that are normally associated with the idea of god, I dont believe in any holy ghosts, hell, angels, devils, heaven, miracles. There is no atheist handbook to life it is not a faith or belief system, it is lack of belief. I have educated myself on many religions and faiths to have sound reason to reject them all.
I say:
Seriously…? Okay…My interpretation of Christianity is a rejection of the lack of belief of all supernatural beings and phenomena that are normally associated with the idea of there being a God…If it’s good enough for you, then it’s good enough for me. You reject the idea (thought/concept/belief) of God, so then you have a different idea (thought/concept/belief) than those who believe in God right?
You can be very careful with your wording, but when people want to sum it up; they say that atheism is the belief that there is no God.
You don’t believe in God
You believe that there is no God
You have a disbelief in God
You have a lack of belief in God
They are all saying the same thing.
The atheist “handbook” (I like to call it a doctrine), may not have been officially claimed, but it’s there because I’ve yet to hear an atheist not refer to it when discussing religion. When you say that things concerning the belief system cannot be “…tested, observed, repeated…” Where did that come from? Oh yeah every science book that teaches the scientific method. This is why you feel that religion is illogical, right? You find it illogical because it doesn’t work with these set of rules, or beliefs.
According to Webster’s dictionary, a belief is:
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing (in your case, the scientific method)
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
You say:
When I let myself down, I have no one to blame but myself, not some non existent invisible god or devil.
I say:
You studied the religion, and yet you make a comment like that? You didn’t learn very much in your studies or you misunderstood because we’re not taught to blame God or Satan for our failures…some people may, but that’s nowhere in my Bible. We believe that the fall of man was not God’s doing or the devil’s doing. It was mankind’s doing, and we’ve been punished because of that. God has expectations of us, and we try to live up to his expectations, but we are sinners. Because of this, many Christians carry a heavy weight of trying to be perfect, but it’s a standard that is impossible to reach. We believe that we cannot reach purity/perfection, unless God makes us pure. But in order to get to that point, we have to take responsibility for our actions, hence, repentance of our sins, and asking for forgiveness. If we’re not blaming ourselves, then I don’t know who we’re blaming. As I’ve stated before, it’s your prerogative if you believe or not, but at least know what you’re talking about. And understand that God and Satan are very visible to those that choose to reject the lack of belief in all supernatural beings and phenomena that are normally associated with the idea of God.
Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Hmmmmm Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is deceitful. So when there is evil…Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god? Just had to leave one ‘mo for the mind…Just further to the author that I am not guilty, I am extremly thoughtful and observant…
SenorCafeDa2nd,
You really made EVERY good point there is to make…
cwright731, “…That was just belittling and degrading our beliefs. Matter of fact, your whole post showed a complete lack of respect for other people’s beliefs. Yet you believe you are so deserving of respect of your beliefs? Also, there are many kinds of Christians. You shouldn’t put everyone into one big category…”
I don’t really see how you found my post disrespectful. I only spoke from MY point of view regarding the ill manner in which the writer of this article sees the atheist..i.e. “guilty”. And I only posted initially because your fellow christian lumped all of US into one big category. See I NEVER step out and try to school or tell religious people what they should do, what they are going to face in life or afterlife if they dont do this or dont do that etc…But it seems that religious people do. You people tend to be extremely judgemental of those that dont think the way you do. By the way, I dont have a ‘belief’..that is the atheists stand point…You talked a lot about understanding ones faith etc…but for you to even think that I have ‘beliefs’ means that you dont understand us as well, that was my point to the writer and my now question to you…Why even speak on it when you dont understand it? I dont believe I am so deserving of respect for any belief…again, I dont have any..
-”If you don’t want to seek God, then that’s your prerogative. However, if you “question faith out of knowledge”, then get the knowledge of the faith before you make a bad attempt at arguing against it. Try to understand it from that religion’s point of view, and not from the atheist point of view. You’re trying to walk a mile in the wrong direction in somebody else’s shoes. That’s why it doesn’t make any sense to you. And frankly, if you’re not going to spend your time trying to find out, then why are you trying to argue against something that you don’t know anything about? That is only foolishness on your part.”
Hmmmm, I see you didnt really ‘get’ my post at all. Not once did I ‘argue’ against the religion. I spoke on my behalf only. I only used your religion at times to aid in one knowing why I dont choose to follow the leader. My choice NOT to follow your leader was made infact upon my learning, observing and already having been introduced and associating myself with religion. Trust me, I didnt just wake up one day and say..”I dont believe”..It was a very long process that took much thought, reasoning and even more inner struggle. It wasnt an ‘easy’ choice to make, but it was an easy decision to come to. So once again, you have done as I expect one of you to do..passed that ever fateful judgement without even knowing what I have been through. I have not walked a mile in the wrong direction in someone else’s shoes because those ’shoes’ used to be on my feet. I was a part of your religion FIRST. I think the problem, yes problem with you all is that your minds are completely closed to anything that you dont understand. I totally understand why you need religion in your life, I understand why so MANY of you need that crutch to lean on, I used to be there myself until I woke up and realized that everything happening in my life good or bad, I was totally responsible for. period. And it has lifted such a burden off of me you cant imagine. I no longer live with that fear that so many others do. The ‘gods gonna getcha’ tactic no longer works on me. All that prayer and begging and wishing and hoping wasnt doing the ‘trick’. I just decided that whatever I wanted to happen, I had to make it happen and my goodness when I thought about it, thats what I was doing anyway. And in all honesty MOST people who are now non believers used to be believers, its hard to fathom that ALL of us are wrong. Even priests, preachers, reverends etc have left the faith due to a greater knowledge and understanding of what the bible really entails. MOST books that are written on being an atheist, living without god, the freedom of atheism, just to name a couple, were written by former religious members. I mean who better to write about the forms of addiction than an addict themselves….(tacky analogy I know, but you get my point hopefully).
-”You basically say that religion has divided the people of the world. Let’s be honest with ourselves. Do we really need religion to be divided? You said so yourself, some people with the same religion hate each other. So do you really think that the underlying issue is religion?”
No, I dont think the issue is religion, I think the issue is people..My reason for saying that was just to prove the fact that religion doesnt always work. How can two groups of people such as the KKK and black people follow the ‘rules’ and beliefs of this same religion and despise each other? How much is god doing for them in the way of unity,compassion,teaching? You all say only god can judge…Im sorry but growing up in Alabama there was A LOT of judging going on that I dont think god had anything to do with, hence the reason why I dont believe in ‘him’. How can I, an atheist see the ‘wrong’ in my ways when your own members dont even get along? How can a murderer be a good example to someone to respect life? You all seem to have a different perception of the bible and its meaning, which was very confusing…religion tends to conform to whomever is teaching it at the time..The least I can say for atheism is we all agree bottomline that there is no god…no disputing that. Religious people cant even agree on WHO is god and the ‘proper’ way to worship or what paths to choose. And thats not disrepect..that is a fact coming from someone who used to associate..
-”The world’s problems didn’t stem from religion. The world’s problems are due to people like you, who used/use religion to achieve their own personal agendas (whether they are for it or against it). I bet you’ve never read the Bible with an open mind. You’ve probably read a few verses or chapters just so you could point out why it’s wrong. You’re probably the type who has only listened to what other atheists have said and looked at the worst examples of Christians to justify your hatred and beliefs. In other words, I’m pretty sure that the majority of your argument wasn’t an original thought, but something that somebody has told you.”
Well thank you for JUDGING and belittling me…Is somebody ‘mad’ over there? lol. When I decided to become atheist, I didnt know a single other atheist. Not one, and it scared me at first to think of myself as ‘on my own’. I never said the worlds problems stemmed from religion. My goodness its amazing how you all are so judgemental and non factual! Now what exactly did I use religion for? What agenda are you talking about? I for one have NEVER used my religion to conquer, murder or plunder entire civilizations over time. I was not the one that stole people from other countries, put them on slave ships, brought them to america and handed them a bible before I gave them food, shelter, clothing OR self respect…My you have me confused with a christian…Now that my dear is an agenda if ive ever heard one,(wink). You dont seem to get it..there is no teaching or being taught with atheism…it, in my experience is simply acceptance of non belief. There is no meeting up every sunday for hours at a time in a building, giving up money to be there, catching feelings for a ghost…There is NO teaching. No one had to point out the wrongs in the bible in contrast to anything else…Its so obvious all on its own. And I have no arguement. I have no intention of trying to convert believers to non believers…I leave that tactic up to religious people…Im perfectly fine with believers, what one chooses to believe in doesnt matter to me at all..But can you say the same…
What happens when I let myself down? I’ll do the same thing I was doing before I was an atheist…Pick up the pieces and continue on with life, WITHOUT blaming ghosts, devils and beggin god to do it for me. The time I would spend praying could be used to justly deal with the challenge myself..But isnt that what all of us do anyway? Whether or not you believe in god, dont you have to go to work, go to the doctor, keep yourself healthy,happy, pay your bills, go to school etc? Our lives are probably not that much different in basics..You just choose to chalk it up to god, I choose not to. Thats not a very hard thing to understand.
-”That’s probably why you’re so angry. When people feel that they are right, they don’t waste their time arguing something that they believe is completely foolish, and they don’t get mad.”
I am not angry at all…forgive me if I conveyed that. I didnt argue, I stated my stand point…And while youre telling me not to argue with something I think is foolish because I think im right…I have to ask you in turn…What are you doing in this forum directing at me as we speak? Arent you also arguing something you think is foolish? Did you not also ‘waste your time’ responding to me, when I responded to the writer…not you? Get a grip….You cant change me, you can not make me see the error of my ways because when it comes to what i DONT believe in I can not be shaken…I know there are religious people in the world, so be it, I dont care…Make it your business to do the same…
cwright731… Califemme23 has made many valid points, I would like to interject and break down your points made in the previous post.
You Say:
“If you don’t want to seek God, then that’s your prerogative. However, if you “question faith out of knowledge”, then get the knowledge of the faith before you make a bad attempt at arguing against it. Try to understand it from that religion’s point of view, and not from the atheist point of view. You’re trying to walk a mile in the wrong direction in somebody else’s shoes. That’s why it doesn’t make any sense to you. And frankly, if you’re not going to spend your time trying to find out, then why are you trying to argue against something that you don’t know anything about? That is only foolishness on your part.
I empathize with the non-believers. I know that it seems like some wild mythological tale…but it is only illogical to you because you’re looking for the wrong thing. You’ll keep overlooking your keys if you’re not looking for the pants you shoved them in. You don’t have to believe in God to see the logic in the belief.
You basically say that religion has divided the people of the world. Let’s be honest with ourselves. Do we really need religion to be divided? You said so yourself, some people with the same religion hate each other. So do you really think that the underlying issue is religion?”
I Say:
I like many of my atheist peers were raised and indoctrinated into the Christian religion from birth, studied the religion and made a conscious decision that the mythology wasn’t for us. I have read the Bible from end to end and not just some scriptures that conform to my beliefs as most Christians do. As far as your religion looking illogical to many of us, many of the allegorical stories that are touted as evidence of your belief system are illogical they cannot be tested, observed, repeated in the “REAL” world. Your statement on religion dividing people, open up a news paper or turn on the news to see whats going on in the world or even in the birthplace of your religion one of the most volatile places on this earth because of religion.
You Say:
Do you not think that atheism is a faith in itself? Faith is something that is believed with strong conviction. You are strongly against religion…so much so that you’ve failed to educate yourself about these faiths, nor do you have a desire to understand them. You’re basically saying that you put your faith in yourself, right?…well yourself and atheism.
I Say:
My interpretation of atheism is a rejection of all supernatural beings and phenomena that are normally associated with the idea of god, I dont believe in any holy ghosts, hell, angels, devils, heaven, miracles. There is no atheist handbook to life it is not a faith or belief system, it is lack of belief. I have educated myself on many religions and faiths to have sound reason to reject them all.
You Say:
Well my question is, what happens when you let yourself down? You’re not going to be more than good in everything that you decide to do. It’s just not possible. If you believe otherwise, you live in more of a fantasy world than what you claim Christians do. You said that no one has yet to answer your question, “…What should I be saved from?” You should be saved from yourself. You would know that answer if you weren’t so busy looking for a reason to attack believers.
I Say:
When I let myself down, I have no one to blame but myself, not some non existent invisible god or devil.
Hmm…Califemme23 has said a lot, but hasn’t made much of a point. You’re very angry and it shows. It seems like you’re trying to convince yourself of your goodness without God more than the Christian community. My question is,however, are you attacking religion as a whole, or only Christianity?
Let’s talk about “condescending and ill informed”, for a minute?
You said:
“Why is it so difficult for YOU people to understand that WE just dont NEED to depend on something other than self to servive/live/manage/progress? And at the same time I dont spend my existence belittling and degrading what YOU people believe in.”
…That was just belittling and degrading our beliefs. Matter of fact, your whole post showed a complete lack of respect for other people’s beliefs. Yet you believe you are so deserving of respect of your beliefs? Also, there are many kinds of Christians. You shouldn’t put everyone into one big category…
In your own words…”…I have no clue if god exists, my fellow non believers dont know either, and good grief we dont want to PRETEND or kill ourselves wasting time trying to find out if he does…”
If you don’t want to seek God, then that’s your prerogative. However, if you “question faith out of knowledge”, then get the knowledge of the faith before you make a bad attempt at arguing against it. Try to understand it from that religion’s point of view, and not from the atheist point of view. You’re trying to walk a mile in the wrong direction in somebody else’s shoes. That’s why it doesn’t make any sense to you. And frankly, if you’re not going to spend your time trying to find out, then why are you trying to argue against something that you don’t know anything about? That is only foolishness on your part.
I empathize with the non-believers. I know that it seems like some wild mythological tale…but it is only illogical to you because you’re looking for the wrong thing. You’ll keep overlooking your keys if you’re not looking for the pants you shoved them in. You don’t have to believe in God to see the logic in the belief.
You basically say that religion has divided the people of the world. Let’s be honest with ourselves. Do we really need religion to be divided? You said so yourself, some people with the same religion hate each other. So do you really think that the underlying issue is religion?
The world’s problems didn’t stem from religion. The world’s problems are due to people like you, who used/use religion to achieve their own personal agendas (whether they are for it or against it). I bet you’ve never read the Bible with an open mind. You’ve probably read a few verses or chapters just so you could point out why it’s wrong. You’re probably the type who has only listened to what other atheists have said and looked at the worst examples of Christians to justify your hatred and beliefs. In other words, I’m pretty sure that the majority of your argument wasn’t an original thought, but something that somebody has told you.
And yet, for everything that you’ve accused the religious community of being and doing, you’re doing it yourself. The problem with the world isn’t religion, it’s human beings. It’s people like you who can’t respect other people’s beliefs because you don’t like what they have to say. So you insult their intelligence and put them down. You tell them that they are the problem and that their way of thinking is inferior to yours. Well congratulations, you just did exactly what you accused the religious community of doing.
Do you not think that atheism is a faith in itself? Faith is something that is believed with strong conviction. You are strongly against religion…so much so that you’ve failed to educate yourself about these faiths, nor do you have a desire to understand them. You’re basically saying that you put your faith in yourself, right?…well yourself and atheism.
“I aim for MORE than good enough and hotdamn Im reaching it WITHOUT giving any credit to YOUR god. For everything I have accomplished in my life, I take credit for.”
Well my question is, what happens when you let yourself down? You’re not going to be more than good in everything that you decide to do. It’s just not possible. If you believe otherwise, you live in more of a fantasy world than what you claim Christians do. You said that no one has yet to answer your question, “…What should I be saved from?” You should be saved from yourself. You would know that answer if you weren’t so busy looking for a reason to attack believers.
And just because someone said God bless you to you, doesn’t mean that you’re better than good. But I do find it interesting that you’ve managed to measure your level of goodness with whether or not a person has bestowed a blessing from God upon you. You may believe more than you want to admit. That’s probably why you’re so angry. When people feel that they are right, they don’t waste their time arguing something that they believe is completely foolish, and they don’t get mad.
I ask the Christian are you good without Ganesha, Zeus, Thor, Zoroaster, Baal, Buddha, Krishna, Osiris, Quetzalcoatl or any multitude of gods that are still or were worshiped.
Most likely you will say yes.
So now you know how I feel as an atheist in not missing anything in not worshiping your god.
SenorCafeDa2nd,
speechless…tell it bruh
CamuiMS,
Thank you very much for that…You chose a small space, yet spoke in volume…
Ms. Winston, “Saying you can be good without God is not an attack on Christianity. It simply gives confidence to people who are questioning faith so they don’t feel guilty about it.”
I had to start with the end of your article..I would like to know just how many non believers have you talked to that professed to YOU of all people that they are guilty and need to feel ‘good enough’ as to not feel as such? You dont have to answer that one, because you’ll probably come off just as condescending and ILL informed as usual….Well let me just tell you, that I speak for myself as well as MANY others who feel as I do…WE ARE NOT GUILTY about anything. We dont question faith out of guilt. We question faith out of KNOWLEDGE, understanding and most importantly we dont have a NEED to lean on a holy ‘GHOST’ or some other unseen/unfelt entity. Did you get that? UNSEEN/UNFELT. Why is it so difficult for YOU people to understand that WE just dont NEED to depend on something other than self to servive/live/manage/progress? And at the same time I dont spend my existence belittling and degrading what YOU people believe in.
“We can never be good on our own. We can only admit our need and trust in Him to save us. As followers of God we humble ourselves to know that we on our own cannot do it”
Again I ask, that NO ONE has answered, What should I be saved from? I do not believe in sin, I dont believe in the ‘devil so what else can I be saved from? Maybe YOU cant be good on your own, but I prove it everyday. Matter of fact I have had MANY christians tell me that I am in a better mental, physical, emotional, financial position than A LOT of religious people. This I know as well for myself. Everytime someone asks me for money or help because THEY DONT HAVE IT and say..”god bless you” to me…That is my proof that I am BETTER than good.
“People dont want to admit that they cant be good enough on their own. We want to save ourselves”
This is another bunch of BS to put it lightly. If you think that all of US are aiming for JUST ‘good enough’ then you need to re-think your premise. I aim for MORE than good enough and hotdamn Im reaching it WITHOUT giving any credit to YOUR god. For everything I have accomplished in my life, I take credit for. It would be a slap in the face of my parents who raised me to give the credit to a myth, fairytale, GHOST instead of to them. They worked to provide for us, they went without so we could have, not god, my parents. They taught me that I didnt NEED anything outside of myself to live my life, and you know what, Im doing damn good, not good enough, DAMN GOOD. Do I sound guilty to you yet?
“because we’re “good enough”. But, once again, good enough for what and for who and who gets to decide”
Once again, I am MORE than good enough. I am more than good enough for myself, good enough for myself and who gets to decide? I DO. Thats the only person who should decide for ME. Who am I to spend my waking and ending moments on MY KNEES bowing down to….oh wow! I dont even know, because NO ONE has proof that ‘god’ exists! And that is the HUGE difference between us two…I have no clue if god exists, my fellow non believers dont know either, and good grief we dont want to PRETEND or kill ourselves wasting time trying to find out if he does…That is just an added burden to be what a ghost wants me to be? How crazy does that sound? Who wants to ‘live eternally in jesus christ’? What exactly does that entail? What is the benefit of it? If it is indeed afterlife, meaning Im already dead, then what do I care what happens at that point? god would punish me? Im dead, what is there to punish? What can he do..cut off my lights and gas, evict me, make me lose my job, kill me, have my car repossessed?
If god is ALL emcompassing, ALL powerful, and he wants YOU to choose the right paths in life, why is there cancer, heart disease, gout, poverty, tyranny, abuse, murderers etc…running rampant in the world? If god predetermined the world and everything has been thus predicted ages ago..then that must mean that all of what is going on is gods PLAN. Why would I bow down to such a spiteful, arrogant, careless entity? All of the above named are gods children right? Sounds to me like god is the BIGGEST dead beat dad and only created the devil as a scapegoat. Something for the sheep of the world to blame HIS missgivings on. Seems like god can pick and choose what he is responsible for, a little subjective dont cha think? How does he have a plan for all of us and yet we have ‘free will’? If I tell my children a week in advance what we are going to do, then they dont have a say so. Do you see my pattern here? The so very contradictory way in which your religion is taught? Use your free will but only SUBJECTIVELY…god hasnt sent not ONE PERSON back to say “Hey, god is real and he aint playin!”..No what does he do instead? Hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, plagues, pestilence and the list goes on and on to supposedly PROVE his ‘existence’. I dont shake my head at all of you that buy this mess…I just shake my head at those of you who cant understand why WE DONT. I think my stance is much more understandable than yours. Bottomline, what I have seen religion do is DIVIDE people of all races, ethnicities, backgrounds for thousands of years as well as those like KKK and black people that share the SAME religion and yet HATE each other. I appreciate my non believers because they only serve to provide information and acceptance…ACCEPTANCE to those that dont believe, very simple. Where as YOU people choose lies, myths and scare tactics to your believers…god is one big mathematical CONDITION..he is there for you IF AND ONLY IF…Sorry but I never liked geometry…
Of course! Some of the nicest more sincere people I have met were atheist, agnostic, or spiritual. People should be good for goodness’ sake and follow the Golden Rule. You don’t have to be a member of any organized religion. Maybe if people weren’t so caught up in Christianity and Islam and Judaism there wouldn’t be so much strife in this world anyways.
Wow. I see that I’m not alone. WOO, HOO!! Let’s all get 2gether & Let ‘em Have it, fellow Non-Believers!!! Yeah!!
Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brethren; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions…
- 1 Timothy 6:1-4
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ…
- Ephesians 6:5
Oh my….I JUST read this article, like three times in a row…But im not going to comment right at the moment…Im going to let this authors words mingle around in my brain for a minute..Not because I question my NON belief, but because I want to be in control and respectful as possible when I rip this DILLUSIONAL mindset up one side and down the other that Ms. Winston has concerning non believers…Judgemental people who CLAIM to be a part of the most forgiving religion REALLY disgust me…
I’m a atheist.
I know I’m in hostile territory but I going to say yes I am good without god in my life.
PSALMS 137:9 NAB
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Exodus 20:20-21 NAB
Exodus 21:2-11 NAB
Exodus 22:28-29 NAB
Leviticus 21:9
2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB
Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT
Exodus 22:17 NAB
Judges 5:30-31 NAB
Exodus 31:12-15
Great post Ms. O…. Love the last paragraph very powerful “know, people don’t want to admit that they can’t be good enough on their own. We want to save ourselves, or better yet, not need a savior at all because we’re “good enough”. But, once again, good enough for what and for who and who gets to decide? I guess if you don’t believe in eternity, you probably don’t care anyways. It’s a pretty big gamble, though.”